EP12: I Thought I Had Nothing Left
I felt like I was left behind kind of thing a lot of the time, uh, in my younger years. Mm. I reflected on how much of an impact the loss of my mother had on me. She was my, my backstop. She was the person I could go to to unpack things. Alcohol was my vice of choice.
Mm.
And, uh, it took me years to really fully accept that my mum was gone.
I used, uh, alcohol and drugs as well just to, to always numb it.
So yeah, that's where I went into my darkest thoughts.
How did you get out of that?
And I had two things which I call the glimmers of what gave me a shift. One was I was petrified of a men's group 'cause I didn't feel manly enough.
What, what would you say, like, for people out there struggling at the moment, what, like, bit of advice would you give them?
Take responsibility. Sometimes it's painful, sometimes it's really uncomfortable. Shame and guilt are two really powerful emotions that-
Nicholas Dobb, also known as Dovv for short. Welcome to Episodes
of Life. Thanks, Daniel. All right. Pleasure to be here.
Ah, appreciate you, uh, coming on. Uh, a bit of a nightmare down the M1 to get here. It's a couple of hours from Brisbane to the Co- Gold Coast. Uh- It,
it was today. Yeah Yes, one of those, uh, deadlock, uh, car parks to- It's-
travel through ...
it's always a nightmare that drive, isn't it? But- Here,
here I am,
so. Yeah, no, that's all that matters. Good to be here. Yeah, appreciate you coming down.
Mm.
Um, suppose we'll start on the origin stories. I grew up in Melbourne, youngest of four. Built, born with a rare sort of blood disorder.
Yeah, so, uh, as, as you said, youngest of four children.
Um, my family moved to Brisbane when I was, uh, eight years old. So I don't really have much, uh, memories of Melbourne, but that was, uh, where it all began. And three older siblings. I was the baby of the family in, in, in the true sense of the word. I was that little, um, little bit spoiled, little bit, uh, oversensitive, um, and the kid that ran to Mum.
Mm.
So, uh, yeah, I was that. Um, and the other thing that has impacted me, I was, uh, born with what's known as thalassemia minor. It's a blood disorder, a form of anemia, and it's had a, an impact throughout my life. It's a hereditary thing. Uh, it's also known as the Mediterranean disease for some people will know that, because it affects a lot of Greeks, Italians- Okay
French from the Mediterranean, uh, regions. Um, and the impact it's had on me is that it's low energy. I get fatigued. And so as a kid, you know, I've reflected back on this, not understanding it at the time, but I've reflected back it, it did affect me because I was that kid that wasn't, didn't have the energy for sport, so- Mm
I didn't get involved in things as much as the other kids. Uh, when I did, I was, you know, the slow kid. I was... And I'm short, short stature as well, so just sort of like, yeah, I, I felt like I was left behind kind of thing a lot of the time, uh, in my younger years.
Mm. And as far as like you said there, you're like the youngest of four, going to your mum, and like, got, her passing away when you were 17, that probably had a massive knock-on effect.
That's right. So really significant and, and I listened to your story about yourself and Lydia- Mm ... and, and I reflected on how much of an impact the loss of my mother had on me. At 17, she was my, my backstop. She was the person I could go to to unpack things. Um, that I wa- have always been a fairly sensitive person and emotional, so she understood me better than anyone.
Mm. And losing that part of my life was just-
Yeah ...
turned my world upside down. Um, and- She, yeah, she was kind of the, the rock for me that I could fall back on and, and, uh, discuss things and unpack things and, and losing her and not having anybody to replace that left me-
Mm ...
alone and in certain ways. I mean, my, my family was around but not around.
No, yeah. A bit like the big pillar.
Yep.
Yeah. And y- what did you do, uh, use alcohol and stuff like that to- Oh,
definitely. Yeah. Yes, yeah. So that was, alcohol was my vice of choice.
Mm.
And, uh, it took me years to really fully accept that my mum was gone. I was, like, waiting for her to come back. Mm. I was in denial that she'd fully left.
I knew she had died of cancer. Um, and my family became quite fragmented, so we weren't there supporting each other through it. I was, I was doing it my own way, and some of that was really dysfunctional, and there were times where I relied on the alcohol or, yeah, to- Yeah ... to take away the pain.
Yeah.
Um, every year for a number of years around the anniversary, I would, uh, for about two weeks map out the last couple of weeks of her life 'cause it was around, um, Mother's Day and then my parents' wedding anniversary.
She had an operation, and then the last couple of days a decline before she passed, and I'd be reliving that, and a lot of alcohol in those couple of weeks, and, um, it affected relationships and work and that- Mm ... sort of thing. It wasn't, wasn't a healthy way to cope.
No, no, yeah, I kind of learnt that as well.
I think you can't ... Oh, it's hard, isn't it? Like, th- that denial, not fully accepting it. I think that's the hardest part of, I suppose, grief when someone passes away that close to you, whoever that may be. Like, accepting it is probably the hardest thing. And I, that was my problem, I think, not accepting it and being at peace with it for like I am now.
But I, I used- Yeah ... uh, alcohol and drugs as well just to, I suppose, numb it in a way and not think about it once you, when you go out and get kind of, uh, legless as people could say. Yeah. It's just you don't think about it. Yeah. And it's, uh-
Yeah. It's a great avoidance tactic. Mm. Not, not beneficial- No ... but it's a great avoidance tactic.
Yeah. I think
a
short term- And it is, is, was part of my coping mechanism, if you will.
Mm.
And, uh, there were times through the years, not just in the first couple of years where it probably was part of the hardest, but also trying to get on with life as a, as a new adult, if you will- Mm ... and, and work out my way and, um- But it carried on through the years that there'd be times where I'd be missing her, I'd get depressed, I'd get run down, influenced by the, uh, thalassemia, the blood disorder as well.
So a combination of factors. And, um, throw in emotional immaturity- Yeah ... as well. Yeah. And I, you know, certainly had some times where there's poor behavior, let's put it that way, and, and some things that I, you know, have disappointment in my own self and probably a little bit of regrets of, uh, hurting people.
No, yeah, I think it accumulates when you're like drink and drugs, that you've looked back and you've... the way you acted or things you've said in them sort of moments, you ki- you do regret. I have them as well. Like- Yeah ... it's... Would you say your mum passing at sort of 17, I know you've talked about, like being divorced twice, would you say that played a part in the relationships or?
By the time I, I married, I had some couple of serious relationships, but that didn't last. Mm. And then eventually met the, the lady that I thought was gonna be my, my forever.
Yeah.
Uh, my first wife, Jocelyn. And, um- There would still be a part that was at play when I met her
Mm.
Um, and then over time that, uh, it, my mum dissipated because married, children, and they became my focus.
And, and so there was, uh, a lot less grief around my mother and, and I think I left that behind in that period of, of marriage and, and probably the first child that came along. I've got two daughters.
Okay. Yeah.
Yeah.
It's all about sort of the blindsided and sort of depression that come with the f- the first divorce.
So yeah, I, I met Jos and thought we were gonna be together forever. Mm. And, uh, got engaged, got married. We were living life. There was a lot of good, and, uh, had two daughters. And, um, when my youngest one was one year old is when we separated. So it's m- many years now- Okay ... uh, under the bridge. And, and my oldest daughter's 27.
She would've been about 23. Uh, she was 4 when, so it's about 23 years since- Mm ... um, first separated. That hit me really hard. Um, talking about emotional woo- um, wounding from my mother passing away, which felt like abandonment.
Yeah.
Um, not that she did- No ... abandon me. Um, but that's the, the emotional wound that I felt.
So then when, uh, divorce came along, again, I felt abandoned. Wasn't my choice, and, and didn't see it coming. And as I said, it's been a long time. So there, there's been a rollercoaster over 23 years. Mm. And we've had some brilliant times where my ex-wife and I have got on absolutely famously, and we took the girls away for holidays together and different things like that.
Uh, celebrated birthdays together and, or Christmas. And then there are other times where it's like, "Nope, we're doing it separate." "We're not getting on." And, and so it's been different things through the years, but now that the girls are adults, uh, it's an even keel. I still keep in touch with my ex-wife, and we're able to talk about things relative- Yeah
to our, um, our daughters- Right ... which is great. Yeah. And, and express that there's still a little part in our hearts that, you know, continue. That-
Mm ...
we, we honor each other for that. Um-
Was it, would you say, like, the, well, saying like you've been divorced twice, what was the hardest one, the first or the second, or the third or-
Oh, hardest one, without a shadow of a doubt.
Second one, uh, from the day I met the lady to the day we separated was three years. Uh, it was a marriage that shouldn't have happened. It was a marriage that happened out of fear.
Okay.
So at that time, um, again, I, you know, I've used the word emotional maturity and have reflected on this and have had lots of growth since then.
I was scared of being alone.
Mm.
And that was my, my fear and insecurities, and she was a lovely lady, but we weren't compatible. And, uh, we each had our respective baggage- Mm ... our respective, um, hang-ups and things that we hadn't worked through enough, and it just didn't work. There were enough signs there that I shouldn't have married- Yeah
uh, that, uh, were visible, but I was scared.
Yeah.
I was scared of being alone.
And- I think there's probably a lot of people, isn't it- Yeah ... um, scared of being alone and that fear of ... Yeah, a lot of people do struggle with that, I would imagine. Yeah.
Yeah. And because it wasn't the relationship that should've been, if you will- Mm
um, there wasn't enough love to see us through, there wasn't enough, uh, understanding of each other to see us through, so it actually exacerbated resentments built up and, and it was pretty ugly by the time, um, we did separate.
And whilst you were juggling all that, you're, you're trying to juggle businesses as well.
Yeah, so I, um, this led through ... I've ha- been what I call clinically depressed twice.
Mm.
And, um, so before the, the, uh, the second marriage, I, I had a period of, of depression. And, um, and so I was coming out of that depression where I met my second wife and, and I wasn't really in the best state. So, uh, we had some lovely times.
We cared for each other, had some fun, but we also had some disasters too. Yeah. Um, so prior to that, uh, as a, probably a fallout from the breakup of, uh, my marriage with the children and challenges associated with that, a number of years had, had already passed. I ventured into a ... I, I'd had a pawnbroking business at, uh, on the Gold Coast at Labrador, and it was quite successful, and if I'd just stuck with that, maybe things would be okay.
But I was at that stage thinking, "Oh, I want to move away from everything that was associated with my marriage," and so I, I started to invest into another business, a franchise, uh, on the Gold Coast as well, and I wasn't in the right state. Uh, they say when, you know, you're not, uh- Mm ... in the right head space, don't make big decisions.
Well, I wasn't in the right head space and I made a big decision. Yeah. I invested in this franchise. Um, and it wasn't the best decision financially. Um, wasn't a great business opportunity as I thought it could've been, number one, and I didn't run the business well. So I end up defaulting on the franchise, and it was taken off me, so I lost money that I'd invested in that.
And chunk of that money had come from the pawnbroking business, as I said, had been successful, and I'd- borrowed from Peter to pay Paul, and therefore then the pawn broking business was left with a deficit as well- Okay ... because of that. And with my depression, whilst the, the debts were probably salvageable if I had my head space- Mm
or, you know, the right person could have traded out of it, I just couldn't, and kind of threw my hands in the air. Um, spoke to my brother who's Had his wits about him. And, uh, then it turned out the best thing to do was voluntary liquidation, so I lost that business. And my father had invested in that business, so I lost my money- Mm
my dad's money. Um, so a lot of guilt and shame around that, uh, because Dad's money is not just mine, but my siblings'- Mm ... as well.
Yeah.
Um, you know, that was taking away from part of their inheritance. Um, and, and I just, I, I lost it. I couldn't cope. And, and eventually I ended up going bankrupt as well, 'cause just life had fallen to a huge pit.
Mm. So, um, I felt emotionally bankrupt as well as financially bre- bankrupt. Um, the depression, and it, it was pretty dark-
Mm ...
there for a period. I went to see... This is the first round of clinical depression, so I went to see-- I had what I called my team. So it was the GP, psychologist, psychiatrist, an exercise physiologist, and, um, a- another fellow that was doing some other therapy as well.
Yeah. Um, and yeah, so I called them my team even though none of them spoke to each other. So, yeah, it was, it was just the way I could reconcile that. Yeah. Um, and, and it did help. The, the psychologist gave me some good skills and tools, and, um, she did some gestalt therapy. The first psychologist I saw was an asshole.
Okay. Absolute asshole. Excuse the language- No, no. It's fine ... but I went to this guy, and I'm in depression, and I-- He had this thing of basically having a contract of that I'm gonna put my best effort in as in he'll support me, and I'll do this. Mm. But, you know, I'm in depression, so I wasn't coping well. I had an appointment that I had to cancel 'cause my youngest daughter was sick.
She was only in kindy. Kept her home, couldn't do the appointment. And because I wasn't coping, I didn't rebook for a number of weeks. Can't remember how many now. Four, six weeks- Mm ... instead of just booking the next week. Yeah. Took me a while to get back there. And when I did, he just reamed me. He just had a go at me and said, "You didn't keep your end of the bargain," and was reaming me out.
And I'm distressed. Yeah. Totally distressed. I've got tears rolling down my cheeks, and it, it ended up I was yelling at this guy saying like, "I'm here asking for support, and you're just criticizing me." And I basically said, "F off." And he said, "Go. I don't want you." It w- it was really cruel- Yeah ... the way he treated me.
Um, so- In distress I rang my sister, one of my sisters who said, "Oh, I've got someone for you," this lovely, uh, other psychologist that she was aware of, and I went to her, that lady on the Gold Coast. Um, did some ... Really helped me get through that stage.
Yeah, good.
But it really didn't get down to the core stuff- Mm
so I was still sort of ready for more. Um, that then led me into my second marriage and subsequent divorce. Okay, yeah. And at that time also I, uh, went from having my daughters through, through a period there, went from having my daughters of a 50/50 arrangement through to, um, my ex-wife withholding them and a court case, and I end up getting what I call the dad deal.
Every second weekend- Mm ... and half school holidays. Yeah. If you can manage to have half school holidays. Uh, a lot of fathers can't because they- No.
Work ...
work commitments. Yeah. And that played into feeling pretty, even more crappy about myself. Yeah. But because I wasn't coping, that played into why I lost the 50/50.
Okay.
Yeah. Um, uh- So it kind of used it against you ... tough, tough pill to swallow. Yeah,
I bet.
Really tough pill- Mm ... to swallow. Um, and so there I- Got to about 2014. Um, by that stage I'd had my two marriages and two divorces. I'd lost the pawnbroking business, I'd lost the franchise business, I'd lost my own money, I'd lost my father's money, I'd lost friends.
Um, I wasn't happy.
No.
And because there were challenges, uh, with the care of my daughters and going between their mum and me, uh, an incident happened and then that led to me not having my daughters in my life. So I was estranged from my daughters. And by the beginning of 2014 I was just like, "Well-
Mm
what's the point?"
You know, some of that dark, dark thoughts.
Yeah, definitely. Um, I recall before I stopped seeing my daughters going, "Life's pretty crap." Mm. "And I'm not happy, I'm not coping, but at least I've got my daughters." And then fast-forward a few months and I didn't have my daughters. Didn't have them.
Mm.
And I just couldn't see the point of living.
Mm.
So from my perspective, it was like Biggest Loser. For all those things that I mentioned, the divorces, the loss of business and money and going bankrupt and the whole lot, and then not having my daughters. And the story in my head was my daughters hate me.
Mm. Correct, yeah.
And it wasn't, for them it wasn't that. There was complications of course, but all I could feel like I was just the biggest loser, and I've got nothing to offer anyone. So yeah, that's where I went into my darkest thoughts.
How did you get out of that?
I was having suicide ideation, but I wasn't planning anything. I wasn't suicidal per se. Mm-hmm. But I certainly had thoughts and-
Yeah, same when I was in there ...
um, and I had two things which I call the glimmers of what gave me a shift. One was, at the time, living in Brisbane on my own in a little, um, s- two-bedroom unit, and I was getting ready for work, and the radio was on, and, and it was, like, morning news where they just, like, 10 seconds of this and 10 seconds of that.
And, and there was this little clip, and they said, "Man dies instantly on the Bruce Highway as he's changing a tire and a, and a truck came past." And my ... In an instant ... Couldn't tell you what was on the news after that because in an instant my mind just went, "Oh, wish that was me." Mm. "Why wasn't it me?" And That was my desire.
It's like- To be taken out. I didn't wanna do it.
No, yeah.
Didn't wanna take myself out.
Mm.
But let some- something else- Something else happen ... like a, a- an accident like that happen. I was like- Yeah ... "Yeah, that, that's what I want." And shortly after that I realised that was pretty dark and- Mm ... and I can't go on like that.
And the other one was talking with a really good family friend, a lady called Dana, who's very special to me. Uh, been around my family for, since I was 13, and, and she and I, I'd, I'd go visit her. She was living on the Gold Coast at Currumbin Eco Village, and I'd come down from Brisbane and spend a weekend with her, and glass of wine, some nice food, some really good discussions and, and talking about personal growth and spiritual position on things.
And- Yeah ... and she shared a perspective on a book. Um, the book is The Richest Man in Babylon, and I'd heard about this book heaps of times, and different perspectives on it, but she just came from a different angle. And because I was loathing myself, basically, I couldn't look at how to help myself. But with this book and Dana's perspective, it was like, "Oh, well, if I focus on finances," which were miserable at the time I was broke.
So if I focus on finances, it was easier than focusing on myself. And ironically, as I ... And so I ordered th- she said, "I'll, I'll loan you the book," and she went looking for it, couldn't find it. So I went onto eBay or something, and I ordered two copies. One for her, since she couldn't find hers to replace whoever she had loaned it to, and one for myself.
And as I said, it was like, "Oh, I can focus on finances so I don't have to focus on myself," 'cause that was too painful. And ironically, as I went through this book, guess what? I'm focusing on myself. Mm. And it's got a spiritual, uh, message throughout, and that sort of thing. And, and so it was start of the, the turn.
That was what I call my glimmers.
Mm-hmm.
And that then led me to, uh, about April 2014, and I remember doing two searches, and the first one was men's support group Brisbane.
Yeah.
Um, and I'll, I'll go down that, that alley first. So I did this men's support group, Brisbane, and my sister who lives on the Gold Coast, she probably had said once or twice a year, and I think for about eight years, "You should join a men's group.
It'll really be good for you." I was petrified of a men's group 'cause I didn't feel manly enough, and I didn't feel like I could have those conversations about, well, certainly not finances 'cause I was broke. I didn't feel-- And even before that, I, you know, hadn't been hugely successful, so I think I wasn't gonna measure up, and I wasn't, didn't have a sporty background, so I couldn't match that, and I wasn't right into cars, so I couldn't match that, and I felt like I was gonna miss out on all levels.
So the idea of a men's group, terrified.
Mm-hmm.
But in desperation, did this search, and in May 2014, I went to a, uh, men's retreat called Manshine, run by Men's Wellbeing. Anxious, loads of apprehension. Uh, it was a long weekend, so arrived on Friday night and it was going through to Monday afternoon. And about 150 men, heap of different workshops and things, and everything I did, I had tears And wondering what I was doing there.
And I'd hear other men share, and so a man might share, "Oh, I've just done this with my son and we had this great weekend and we bonded." And I'm like, tears rolling down my cheeks because I didn't have a connection with my daughters.
Okay, so you still didn't talk to your daughters then?
No No. It was a number of years.
Okay.
And then another man would end up sharing and he's sharing how he's disconnected from his children. I'm going, "I can relate," in my mind. I'm going, "I can relate to that," and more tears. Mm. And, and just like it was, it was a tough weekend. I wanted to run away at one stage because I'd been so stirred up.
And I felt like I'd gone backwards, 'cause leading up to that point I'd been doing reading and listened to audios and doing affirmations and doing meditations and, and a whole heap of stuff, and I felt like for the last three months I'd just, what a waste of time.
Mm.
And of course I hadn't gone back, but that's just what it felt like- Yeah
in the moment. I stayed for the weekend, coming out of it thinking, "Wow, there's a lot of guys there. Like, how many gurus in one place?" 'Cause that's how it felt like. I felt way down the bottom and all these guys were on pedestals. And not everyone, 'cause there's other new men there as well, but there was a bunch of them.
And I'm like, "Something about this organization." And, and I followed on with that organization. I did a, a program with them, a nine-week program with a group of, um... There was a group of nine, nine men that went through, and I'm still friends with about three or four of them to this day- Good man ... from 2014. Uh, and I've got involved in that organization, so I'm right involved in it.
I'm delivering that same program I, I went through. Uh, as, there's a pool of facilitators, so I get called in for that now and then. And it's been incredibly beneficial.
Mm.
Uh, it totally changed my perspective. There wasn't the talk of finances and cars and sport. Um- within what they were doing. You get to know people- Yeah
and yes, there's those conversations happening as well because it just, guys getting together. But not in a competitive way, and is very, well, supportive. And it's a really healthy community, so it's become a part of my life, what they call men's work.
Okay. Yeah. So you're still involved today?
Still involved- Yeah
and, and yeah, so it's, it's a part of my life.
Best for you. But, like, looking back, probably, like, the best thing you've done, getting out of that.
One of the key things. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've, I've got a bunch of new friends from there and some really close men that, uh, we get together socially and... or I can just sit and have a chat, and it can be absolute banter and, and, and ribbing each other.
And then in an instant, something important we need to discuss, and we can just drop into real heartfelt conversation. Mm. And, you know, a lot of authenticity there, and group of men that I really admire.
Yeah. Oh, good. Um- So- P- probably more people need to do that, them sort of things, I reckon.
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.
It's, uh, it's really beneficial and, and men's wellbeing has just been a, a major part of my life. There's some other great men's organisations out there as well, just to, to be fair with that. And the other search that I said I did on the internet was, uh, I had been to a personal development weekend a number of years ago, and I went looking for the facilitator of that, a guy called Christopher Howard, and he's, uh, from the States and is...
Anyway, I went looking to see if he's gonna be doing anything similar, and I couldn't find him, and at that stage he wasn't doing anything in Australia. But I did come across a different organisation through my Google searching, uh, called Authentic Education. And as it turned out, the two, uh, founders of, um, Authentic Education, Ben Harvey and Cham Tan, had both done work with Christopher Howard and Tony Robbins.
So they were coming from that environment- Mm ... of personal development, s- set up their own company. And I went to a free weekend that they put on s- uh, in, also in 2014, a little bit later in the year, it was about September by this stage. And loads of great information from this. They said it was a free weekend, we're going through, and there's a workbook and different stuff, and they're using the free weekend to promote their paid courses.
Mm.
And one of those paid courses was life coaching And it was like, "Ah, that's what I've been looking for." 'Cause there was an emptiness inside me. Yeah. I was working, but I wasn't feeling fulfilled in my life. And I went, "That's it." It was like, you know, the, the universe has guided me. And, and that I was sitting there and again, just this little tear came down my cheek as I was sitting there because it's like I'm feeling still quite broken, but wanting to help other people.
Mm.
And, and not having the money to afford this course. And so I end up signing up on a payment plan and, and over time, and about a year, not quite a year later, I end up doing that life coaching course with Authentic Education, and since then done a few more courses with them, and I've got a community of people through Authentic Education that are also been part of my support network- Yeah
and friendship group now.
Oh, wicked, yeah.
So the two organizations were really instrumental in my healing, um, that gave me different ways of looking at things, and the big work's internal.
Mm-hmm.
The big work's internal. And there was some tough times. There were some really painful times But worth it
Mm.
Totally worth it.
You're still involved both, with both of them now?
Yes. Yeah.
You're still ... And you're ... So you still, are you co- doing, like, life coaching full time now?
Uh, I didn't ... I'll come to that, come back to that in a minute. So what happened in 2014 with men's wellbeing and, uh, authentic education, I was also doing
I was reading books, I was lis- listening, uh, to audios, um, I was watching videos, and things I said before. I was doing things like affirmations- Yeah ... and meditations and, uh, journal writing and bits and pieces. Not big on journal writing, but I did little bits here and there. Um, and I was going to other little one-day courses and stuff and, and I did a variety of things and got more involved in, um, authentic education and men's work and that sort of thing.
So I started doing a lot of my healing through that.
Because sort of learning about it from other people and taking, I suppose ... Like, like for me, trying to doing this and talk to people is, like, interesting to learn how other people think and how they deal with their sort of demons, I suppose, and you kinda use-
Absolutely.
Mm. Yeah. I've, I've learnt so much from other people- Yeah ... sharing their stories. Um, and, and also knowing that in people sharing their stories, it's like you're doing for me now is holding space.
Yeah.
And I've learnt how to hold space for people as well and, and I'm still gaining benefit by doing that.
Yeah, yeah.
Um, so yeah, I, I went on this big, what I call my rebuilding phase. And in my rebuilding phase was all of that, the men's work, the life coaching, training, and other courses through Authentic Education, and all the other videos, listenings, books, and doing-
Mm ...
and practicing stuff and working out, reflecting on my life, getting insights and going, "Well, what do I wanna change?
How do I ... " You know, identified I wanna be a better man, and I still didn't have my girls in my life, and m- one of my goals was, "I'm gonna be a great dad, and I'm gonna ... I don't know how long it's gonna be before they come back into my life, but I'll be a great dad in absence." Mm.
And
I took this approach of if I'm in a happy family and this
still together, and I go to work for a day and I come back, well, just when I was at work, I didn't stop being a dad.
No.
And if I was in a fly out, fly out, you know, flying FIFO work, and it was a week away at a time, I'd never stop being a dad, if that was the case. Or if I went overseas for six months for a job, I'd not stop being a dad.
So I looked at it that way. Even in absence, I don't stop being a dad.
Mm.
And I'm gonna be the best dad I can be so that whenever they walk through the door, they won't go Well, he's a loser basically Mm. Uh, that I'll have made significant shifts that they can go, "Yep, he's an okay guy." And we did end up connecting, uh, end of 2016 with my youngest daughter and January 2017 with my eldest daughter.
Um, there's times of closeness and not so close. Yeah. Uh, unfortunately my youngest daughter, who's a bit older now, and she's chosen not to talk to me at the moment. Mm. And that's one of my heartaches, current heartaches- Yeah. Yeah ... and, and challenges. Uh, my eldest daughter lived in Mexico for just over five years, and she's back in Australia now and, and that's great to have her.
Mm. So spending a little bit of time with her when I can.
Yeah. Good.
Um, so there's been a whole evolution with that. Um, you asked about life coaching. I didn't do much with the life coaching in terms of a business.
Mm-hmm.
And, uh, but because of all this involvement, I came across another modality referred to as TRTP, and that stands for the Richards Trauma Process.
And the moment I heard about it, it's like, "I've got to do that. That's for me. This is what I need to do. This is on top of the life coaching, not instead of, but on-
On
top. Yeah. Okay ... on top of." And I was in the next intake, and it, it's been life-changing for me, uh, because as part of the training to be a, to be a practitioner, they said, "Well, you've got to experience it."
So you ... I was hooked up with a, a mentor and to go through as a client and, and continue- Yeah ... with that mentor with my training. And so it's like, you know, "Bring your baggage." And it's like, "Okay." "You asked for it. I'll bring it." And so I did, and I went through that and had some really amazing shifts, continued with my training to be certified as a TRTP practitioner, and now I've got my business of trauma therapy and, and what I call resilience coaching.
It's a blend. It's the TRTP. It's the life coaching. It's things I've learnt through Men's Wellbeing, and just other- Mm ... life experiences that I bring to the table. And so I'm, I'm there helping people now.
Yeah.
And I love it.
Yeah. Good. That kind of- It's my passion ... us- using what, what you've been through to sort of help and support other people.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
No, it's good that you've, uh, you've done that. Uh, what ... Talk about more, like, the, was it TR-
TRTP?
Yes. How does that sort of work?
So TRTP is a h- uh, an amazing modality. It's, it's fairly young compared to a lot of other, uh, modalities that are out there. It, uh, was created by a lady called Judith Richards, so therefore the Richards Trauma Process.
Mm-hmm. And it's got a little bit of NLP, but it's not NLP. It's got a little bit of Gestalt therapy, but it's not Gestalt therapy. It's got a little bit of hypnosis, but it's not hy- hypnosis. And so she's combined 15- Yeah ... 20 different mo- things, and she's like, "I'll take that element out of there. I'll take that chunk over there," and, and she's created this over time, initially for herself.
Mm-hmm. Okay.
She had her own traumas, and, and so she h- used those things over, I'll say, some years to heal herself, to then develop this modality, and, and is now, um, lots of practitioners out there. There's psychologists that have trained in it, that have ... adding it into their toolkit. And so what TRTP does is tap into a person's subconscious, 'cause trauma's stored in our subconscious and in our body.
Mm.
Um, probably heard of the book, Body Keeps the Score.
Mm. Yeah.
Yep. So in our body, in our subconscious mind. And- With, I'll say trauma and distressing events. So some people think, "Oh, but I haven't had any trauma in my life." And I go, "Well, have you had any distressing events in your life?" And they go, "Oh, yeah."
And it's like, "Yep, we'll deal with that." Because when we have distressing events or traumatic events, not only do we have this big influx of emotions and everything that happens to us and, and therefore our bodies react with chemicals and, and physical reactions that We go through the fight, flight, freeze, but the, the, all the chemicals and things that we produce and the high level of emotions, it doesn't get resolved.
And so there's a part of it, what I call an emotional wound, that hasn't healed.
Mm-hmm.
And through the TRTP, we can heal the wound. And I compare it to if I had a, um, a big open wound on, on top of my thigh, and every time I brush the chair or the door frame or anything, it sends a shockwave through me. Yeah.
And I can't think for a while because it's like that pain's just gone through, and, and my behaviors are altered because of what's happened. The same happens with emotional wounds. We get that trigger-
Mm ...
boom, in a moment, and everything changes, and our whole demeanor changes, and the chemicals go coursing through our bodies, and we're, we're acting differently.
Angry or shying away or whatever it is. Um, when we say we get triggered, that's exactly what's happening.
Yeah.
And it's no different to-
I don't know.
Yeah ... a, a, a physical wound. A physical wound,
yeah.
And so again, if I compare that physical wound, if, if that's healed, well, it might be tender at times, and there might be a scar there.
It's not like it's never happened, but it's not a driver in my life anymore because I've healed that wound. Mm. So if I heal an emotional wound within myself, yeah, it might be tender at times. I might remember it, but it's no longer a driver. I don't get those triggers-
No. Okay ...
guiding my life and, and having me react a certain way and, and upsetting me and being s- really sad or really angry and, and all the different emotions- Mm
that can come out of it.
Oh, that's interesting.
And the behaviors that go with those emotions- Mm ... that, that might lead to I get triggered, so therefore we talked about having too much alcohol- Okay ... or other substances. Yeah. I don't do that because I'm not being triggered.
Mm.
So when people ... And it might be anxiety.
It's a really common side effect of emotional wounds. And But do you suffer with anxiety at all?
No, I don't. Nah. No.
So you're fortunate. So a person that might typically suffer with, um, repeated anxiety, they are spending a lot of energy avoiding being triggered.
Mm-hmm, okay.
So they, they've like set things up.
"I'll make sure if I do this, if I, you know, if I go there or do that or talk to that person or don't talk to that person," they, they think about things a lot, and they're using a lot of emotional energy and mental energy to avoid being triggered. Yeah. Or they get triggered, and they get all the energy of being triggered and, and, "Oh, no, why did..."
Ooh, knocking this microphone around. Uh, "Why did I do that?" And, "I shouldn't have said that. That's why this happened," and they're, they're spending a lot of energy having been triggered.
Mm-hmm.
Well, if you're not being triggered, guess what? You got a whole lot of energy up for sale. Mm. Just been given to you.
Yeah. Not for sale, it's just been given to you, because you're not expending it on protecting yourself from being triggered or the effects of being triggered, and so that's the, the benefits of TRTP. Mm. We can heal some of the big emotional wounds. Doesn't mean we get all of them-
No ...
but yeah, let's get some big ones that are, that are affecting a person and frees them up, and if someone...
I'll just use anxiety, 'cause it's a fairly common one, but depression and, and so many other things that people have to deal with, that because they're expending their energy on those things, that their world is, world view is-
Mm ...
limited, and it get, can get restricted, and for some people can get really narrow, that they can d- they're in survival mode, uh, a lot.
So their world gets very small in some ways. If we can heal the wounds, they're not being triggered, and the energy opens up, well, their world view opens up. And I say there's lots of opportunities around, so, but if I can only see in this bandwidth, I'm not seeing all the opportunities- No ... that are on either side.
But if my world w- opens up, all of a sudden it's like, "Ah, so I can learn another language or do that sport or do something else I wanna do."
And that be your Ze- Zest Quest?
Zest Quest is my business.
Your b- okay. Yep. And that's how you run that yourself and,
yeah. Yeah, so it's that, Zest Quest is me. I am Zest Quest.
Zest Quest is me. It's a one-man show. Um, and, uh, so Zest Quest is my business. That's the trauma therapy. Uh, I've got a workshop coming up soon, so doing group work as well as individuals. Mm. Uh, as I said, I'm also involved in, in men's work, but that's separately when I'm doing things for men's wellbeing.
Yeah.
And yeah, that's what I love doing.
Mm.
And, and when I see clients and witness their growth or they come back and, and share something with me, it's like, ah, it's just amazing.
Mm. How long have you had the company for now?
Uh, since
2018 Oh, for a while then, yeah
Yeah
So, what, talk about that other two bu- Have
Do you learn from their mistakes from the other two businesses and you, to make you a lot, kind of a better businessman now with this, with Zest Quest?
Yeah, I've got, yeah, certainly a different- Mm ... approach and different types of business as well Yeah Um, yeah, I certainly got my scars from losing those businesses-
Yeah
that, uh, have some, probably some precautions. My, my, my, um, I'll just call it- Mm ... fears and insecurities that, that happened- Yeah ... because of, of what happened there. Uh, so I've been probably a little bit conservative in some ways- Yeah ... but certainly there's some positive lessons that have come out of it.
Yeah.
And, uh, you know, the real healing is what happened inside.
Mm.
And so I communicate differently. I want to be as authentic as I can.
More, like, confident, would you say, in yourself?
Yes. Mm. Yeah. Because I, one of the things that I pride myself on, uh, and what I want for all my clients, is to have an enhanced relationship with yourself.
So I know you've got a brother.
Yeah.
There's probably things you really admire in your brother, and I bet there's some things that he does that he annoys you too.
Where's my younger brother? So yeah, yeah.
The point being is relationships are multifaceted.
Mm.
And so I'm assuming you've got a good relationship with your brother- Oh, yeah, yeah.
Love him to bits ... but there'll be, still be those things- Yeah ... that, "Yeah, he gets up my nose when he does that," sort of thing. So they're multifaceted, and our relationship with ourselves are multifaceted. And so I don't just say, "Hey, have more self-love," full stop. Because there's other parts. There's parts of myself that I can say, "Yeah, I really admire that."
And there's parts like, "Oh, I don't like that bit. Ah, that makes me feel crap." And parts I might have shame about, and all those sorts of things. So my relationship with myself has improved incredibly. And, uh, there's a couple of, uh, quotes that come to mind, and one is a quote from the Buddha, and it's, "You yourself, as much as anyone in the entire universe, deserve your love."
Mm.
And so with that quote, if you think of- Your absolute love for any family member or Lydia or anybody in your life, you think of the, the purest of that love. You deserve that for yourself.
Mm.
Not just outward. It needs to go inward. In a spiritual way, not an egotistical way. Mm. We're not talking ego here.
No. Self-love is an ego.
No. '
Cause if the, if it's arrogant, it's not self-love.
Mm.
That's a different thing happening. And so I look at the multifaceted relationship we have with self, and to have compassion, to have forgiveness, to have pride. To say, "Yeah, I did that well. Hey, I, I have pride." It's like, hey, when a client comes and, and, and I know they've got a result, I feel good about that.
Mm.
And
they encourage me to keep doing this stuff. Mm.
Keep im- keep improving.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And I'm human. I don't get things right all the time, so if I don't, let me learn from that. Mm. Let me take my responsibility and be authentic about that.
Well, what would you say, like, for people out there struggling at the moment, what, like, bit of advice would you give them?
Consider that relationship with yourself. Responsibility is a word I, I tend to use, and responsibility can feel like a burden, but I find if I do it well, it actually is freeing. It gives me more clarity and confidence, um, because I own my stuff And when I own my stuff, if there's something that isn't working well, then I'm more inclined to repair that and improve.
Um, so the healing's inward. Look inward. That's, that's probably the biggest piece of advice is that take responsibility. Sometimes it's painful, sometimes it's really uncomfortable. Shame and guilt are two really powerful emotions that can- Mm ... can be debilitating, and if you can work through those, you can work through anything.
Yeah. That's what I was kind of dealing with, I think, that guilt and shame for a long time, and-
Yep ...
eats you up, and it's ... Yeah, you get to a dark place, and it's no good. But, uh, I really appreciate you coming down, Dov. It's been a- Yeah ... interesting conversation.
And, and I have to say, uh, just 'cause it's really key for me as well, is relationships are so important for me.
Mm. And when I think of how my intimate relationships were prior to my, my big personal growth, and the relationship I've got now, chalk and cheese.
Mm.
And, uh, I show up differently in the relationship and, and so I have this beautiful, loving relationship with really healthy communication with my partner.
We've been together over nine years and, and Leanne's a, a godsend to me. Mm. It's like we, we support each other in our growth.
Communication is key, isn't it, to everything? I think-
It is. Yeah. It is. Uh, and there's a lot of layers to that. Mm. And, and I said there's that word responsibility that comes into that as well.
Yeah. Um, so yeah, I was inspired to hear your story and, and inspired to be on this podcast, so I'm really grateful for that.
No, I appreciate it. So thank you. I appreciate you coming down. Yeah.
Very good episode. Been really interesting. Thanks, Daniel. Learned a lot. Yeah. Thank you, Dov.
Been great. Appreciate it.
Thank you.
There we go